The Judean Matters

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The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:04 am

To His Holiness, Pope Leo VII, Bishop of Rome

Events, it seems, proceed apace in the Holy Land. There are two matters that I felt must be brought to your attention. Though both matters will likely have been resolved at a local level before you have had a chance to respond, I feel it is important for the Church to formulate a response. First, Yitzchak ben-Benyamin ben-Yehuda has determined to crown himself as King of Judeans. Already he is King in all but name within his realm and soon he will solidify that by a title of his own crafting. Though he may exist beyond our complete control, by virtue of being a Hebrew, yet there is a opportunity for diplomacy here. By recognizing the royal claim of Yitzchak, we may yet help bring him closer to our faith and perhaps one day acceptance of our lord, Jesus Christ. Alternately, a refusal to recognize the royal title will surely turn him away from us and could push him to remove protections for Christians within his realm. I believe firmly that the Church should recognize this claim.

The second matter is thus: Yitzchak has ordered the formation of a company of Christian knights to serve as defenders of Christian and our holy places in the Holy Land. This Nazorean Guard, to be led by my former ward, Aloys de Narbonne, even now is being marshaled for their first action, to bring the Lord's own vengeance upon those who would attack Christian pilgrims upon the road. They shall bring swift justice to the bandits who have breached Ytizchak's peace and desecrated relics and scriptures of our lord. I ask you, Holy Father, to grant your blessings to this company of Christian knights, that they may hold the authority of both our Lord who rules in Heaven and the lords who rule here upon the earth when they bring due punishment to these brigands.

In faith,
Cardinal Bishop Daniel of Jerusalem
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Varasd on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:08 pm

Greetings!

The "Judean Matters" are now open for discussion for the College of Cardinals for 7 days. Every cardinal is requested to voice their opinion on this matter.

The two requests shall be handled with different votes, so every cardinal is requested to clearly submit their vote in the following format after their arguments.

Crown request of Yitzchak: for/against

Acknowledgement of the Nazorean Guard: for/against


His Holiness, the Pope, is currently deeply thinking through the matters of which you have requested, Cardinal Daniel, of Jerusalem. However, we have one question about the Nazorean Guard. You call them Christian Knights, is Aloys de Narbonne, your former ward, christian himself aswell?
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:14 pm

Aloys de Narbonne, as well as his sister, remain Christians in good stead, faithful to our Lord, Jesus Christ. They are truly examples to be beheld of temperance and piety.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Varasd on Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:30 pm

Those are good news indeed. If indeed a Christian in good faith leads the Nazorean Guard, we shall vote in favour of their acknowledgement.

As for granting a Crown, supported by Rome, to a heathen, is questionable. Even if the heathen has good intentions and protects those of true faith in his lands.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:41 am

I fear I must correct Your Holiness. Though he may not be a Christian, neither is Yitzchak a heathen not is he a worshipper of the Devil. The Hebrews do cleave to the eternal God, and they hold holy the laws of Moses and maintain the commandments carried down from the mountain.

Please allow me to cast the matter in a different light. He is already to his people as a king. He will crowns l crown himself as a king. He will treat with the princes of Europe as a king. The question is not if he will be granted a crown. He will have it regardless. The question is if we will recognize his crown. I for one believe we must. Many of his people adhere to his peace, yet there are some who do not. Some who assuredly would not readily accept his edicts as King then as Lord.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Cybelos on Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:09 am

You have said that granting his grace a crown may one day, perhaps lead to his acceptance of Jesus Christ, but a refusal could put Christians of the realm in danger.

I ask you Cardinal, seeing as you are a servant of God, does his grace seem an acceptable, just leader?


As for the Nazorean Guard, I am in favor of the motion.
Let it be known that the Lord, Yitzchak has been welcoming to pilgrims of my nation, hitherto.
I know this to be true by way of personal experience, and by re-tellings of the devout of Cybelos.

God be with you,
Cardinal Lysander of Tyrn
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Crusader on Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:18 am

It is not the Christian way to be black-mailed by heretics and especially by the Killers of Christ! I will not support either notion.

Jerusalem cannot be a Kingdom, Jerusalem is God's Holy Land, the only acceptable answer is for direct control under the Holy See, we would support no other proposition than that.

Bishop-Knight Laurence
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:13 am

Cybelos wrote:You have said that granting his grace a crown may one day, perhaps lead to his acceptance of Jesus Christ, but a refusal could put Christians of the realm in danger.

I ask you Cardinal, seeing as you are a servant of God, does his grace seem an acceptable, just leader?


As for the Nazorean Guard, I am in favor of the motion.
Let it be known that the Lord, Yitzchak has been welcoming to pilgrims of my nation, hitherto.
I know this to be true by way of personal experience, and by re-tellings of the devout of Cybelos.

God be with you,
Cardinal Lysander of Tyrn

Please, allow me to impart upon you three tales to demonstrate Yitzchak as a leader.

Three years past, Yitzchak desired an accurate and exact accounting of what lay within his treasury and so he set a steward and his assistant to make a counting.  The steward initially said the task would take him two weeks.  However, a week had barely passed when the steward gave an accounting of all that was within the treasury.  When questioned how he had so much more quickly attained the count, the steward declared he had devised a strategy that allowed for him to make the count in half the time.  Yitzchak congratulated the steward and was on the verge of presenting him with a reward for his efforts when the junior steward who the first steward supervised declared that it was he, and not his senior, that had devised the strategy and done the accounting.  The two argued with one another at length and none could determine who had indeed done the counting.  Finally, Yitzchak adjourned the audience and declared that he would decide the matter in the mourning.  Come the morning, the two stewards were brought before Yitzchak, who was in a black mood.  He declared that another had been tasked with reviewing the accounting and compare it to the records of taxes collected and it was found that a chestful of silver was missing and that as the counters, surely one of the two was the thief.  Immediately the senior steward proclaimed that it was the junior who had done all the counting and therefore he must be the thief while the junior merely fell to his knees, claiming all he had done was count the contents of the treasury.  Benyamin, eldest of Yitzchak’s sons, then informed his father that he had located the missing chest behind Yitzchak’s throne.  Pleased that the accounts totaled properly and having had the matter of who had made the counting settled, Yitzchak presented the junior steward with the chest of silver as a suitable reward for his efforts.  Let this be a testament to his wisdom.

Some four years past two men were brought before Yitzchak, the one a vendor and the other other a beggar.  The beggar, claimed the vendor, had stolen a loaf of bread from him.  The beggar admitted freely that he had stolen the loaf but it had only been because he and his child were starving.  Yitzchak ordered the child brought before him, witnessed the drawn face and declared that because the beggar had stolen the loaf, he owed the vendor recompense.  Since he lacked the ability to pay it, Yitzchak would pay it himself and would regain his losses by taking service from the beggar as a slave.  The beggar remained Yitzchak’s slave for a period of five and ten months, at which point began the Year of Jubilee which, by tradition of the Hebrews, requires the freeing of slaves.  The beggar was given his freedom, as well as head of cattle and grain and wine, as required by the Deuteronomic Code.  Let this stand as a testament of his justice.

Two years past, a maiden at court was found weeping in the cellars.  When questioned, she finally declared that her virtue had been forcibly taken from her by a man at court.  They were each brought before Yitzchak and questioned and after much investigation and deliberation, Yitzchak found the man to have been at fault.  By the Deuteronomic Code, the man was compelled to give the maiden’s father fifty pieces of silver and to marry the maiden.  Upon the marriage contract, the man did promise all his wealth to the maiden upon the event of his death.  Then, having been married and all his worldly possessions promised to the maiden upon the event of his death, the man was promptly taken to the gates of the city and stoned to death for his trespasses against the law of Yitzchak.  Let this stand as a testament to his vengeance against those who trespass against him.

This is the style of rule of Yitzchak.  With wisdom and justice in abundance, mercy when called for and harsh vengeance when wronged.

Crusader wrote:It is not the Christian way to be black-mailed by heretics and especially by the Killers of Christ! I will not support either notion.

Jerusalem cannot be a Kingdom, Jerusalem is God's Holy Land, the only acceptable answer is for direct control under the Holy See, we would support no other proposition than that.

Bishop-Knight Laurence

Yitzchak offers no blackmail. Indeed, the chance that he may punish his Christian subjects is a small one to be sure. However, he will surely be turned away from the Church and the word of our Lord, Jesus Christ, if we slight him so.

Further, having witnessed the abundance of his realm and the wisdom of his rule, there is little doubt in mine mind that, though he has not accepted Christ as the son of God and his savior, he is truly favored and blessed by the Lord in Heaven. To move against him by military might is to invite disaster and the vengeance of Heaven upon us.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Varasd on Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:03 pm

The Pope shall approve his claim for a crown, on the following terms:

- The King of Judea shall cede his right of investiture to the Pope.
- The King of Judea shall allow the monasteries to be built in his realms, and allow them to be function as their counterparts in Christian lands.
- A male child from the ruling dynasty shall be sent to a Christian court, until he reaches adulthood. The child shall then return to Judea.
- In the Kingdom of Judea, no Christian shall be harmed or hindered in their beliefs; Christians can celebrate their holidays, as they wish; the safety of Christians shall be ensured by the King of Judea; Christian priests and converters can freely access and preach in the Kingdom of Judea. Every future King of Judea shall uphold these laws.

Under these terms, the Pope shall acknowledge the ruler of Judea as king.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Uili Fianna on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:00 pm

Cardinal Luq Léxonnois

"The church will not be blackmailed by the slayers of Christ and a snake nonetheless. Our honourable peer has previously said that refusal would cause backlash for the sheep of god in the Holy Land - but now he backtracks in order to protect his master! Who does he serve? Christ or the false King in Jerusalem? As far as I am concerned there shall be no Kingdom in Jerusalem until the Holy City and the birthplace of Christ are in the hands of God - the Kingdom of God!

Should this heretic wish for a crown he should come to Rome and plead at the feet of the Pope, kiss his largest toe and scrub the feet of the prisoners and the poor. Should he wish for a crown he should acknowledge Christ the Saviour as the true lord and claim vassalage underneath the Holy See!"

The Cardinal sat down and called for water. For he had worked himself into quite a frenzy.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:09 pm

To the points you have asked for, Yitzchak has responded thusly:

- The King of Judea shall cede his right of investiture to the Pope.
"I have in my curiosities read of the words of Yeshuah ben Yosef, who declared that one should 'render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's.'  It seems a fair notion, and the investing of Christian priests does rightly lie with the Christian Congregation, therefore I shall render unto the Bishop of Rome the thing that are the Bishop of Rome's."
- The King of Judea shall allow the monasteries to be built in his realms, and allow them to be function as their counterparts in Christian lands.
"Those places that are properties of the Christian Congregation are the properties of the Christian Congregation.  If it is their wish to construct monasteries to serve their orders as hospital and home, then they shall be allowed it.  I shall leave them to their efforts, except that they might violate mine or God's law.  If so doing, I will be left with no choice but to enter those places and see justice done."
- A male child from the ruling dynasty shall be sent to a Christian court, until he reaches adulthood. The child shall then return to Judea.
"Mine youngest son, Shmuel, is but five years of age.  Should he be a willing recipient, I shall send my son and his tutor to the court of King Alexander I of Cybelos, for he is known to me and I do trust in his hospitality and charity that mine son will not be abused nor neglected."
- In the Kingdom of Judea, no Christian shall be harmed or hindered in their beliefs; Christians can celebrate their holidays, as they wish; the safety of Christians shall be ensured by the King of Judea; Christian priests and converters can freely access and preach in the Kingdom of Judea. Every future King of Judea shall uphold these laws.
"Have I not already sworn to protect the Christian within mine realm?  Does the Bishop of Rome require further evidence?  So be it.  Let there be a covenant between Jerusalem and Rome.  The Christian shall be free to hold his faith within mine realm, their safety guaranteed by mine word and mine vengeance.  The Christian priest shall freely preach his faith within mine realm.  And should one of mine subjects come to him and say 'I have heard your preaching and wish to learn of your faith,' and having learned of the faith the man shall further say 'I wish to join your congregation,' then he shall be free to do so.  And he shall write upon a scroll an accounting of his life and he shall put upon it his name and the scroll will be taken to the gates of the city and stoned and he shall be declared dead as is required by the Deuteronomic Code.  Having died and been reborn within the Christian Congregation, he shall take for himself a Christian name and be known as 'ben Yeshuah'.  And his wife, if he shall have one, shall be a widow and receive those portions of his properties as promised by the marriage contract unless she will also take place in the Christian Congregation, in which case he shall write a scroll for his wife and she shall put upon it her name and the scrolls will be taken together to the gates of the city and be stoned and they shall both be declared dead as is required by the Deuteronomic Code.  And she shall take for herself a Christian name be known as ‘bat Yeshuah’.  But if any priest of the Christian Congregation shall say to one of mine subjects ‘you should change and become one of mine Congregation,’ then he shall have his vestments stripped from him and the vestments shall be taken to the gates of the city and be stoned and priest shall be declared dead as is required by the Deuteronomic Code.  And the man, now reborn as not a priest, shall be expelled from mine realm.  And each of the Kings of Judeans shall be sworn to this covenant.  And just as God’s covenant with the Congregation of Israel is not unilateral so too shall our covenant be.  The Bishop of Rome shall proclaim mine Crown as true and just and blessed by God and it shall be a sin for any Christian Lord to attempt to wrest it from me or mine heirs and that any who would do so shall be declared a heretic and made excommunicant and when he is vanquished King of Judeans shall have a share in the spoils.  And the Bishop of Rome shall proclaim that the Jew in Christian realms shall be protected and not be abused nor denied his faith.  He shall not be compelled to renounce his faith against his will.  And he shall not be taxed for his faith.  And he shall not be expelled for his faith. And the Bishops of Rome shall be sworn to this covenant.  And this will be the covenant between us.”

These are the responses of Yitzchak ben Benyamin ben Yehuda.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Cybelos on Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:15 pm

I, Lysander of Tyrn, approved of the motion to grant a crown to the lord, Yitzchak.

As for the rite of protection to the Jewish peoples in all lands that swear fealty to Rome, most holy, you must understand that our lord, Jesus of Nazareth was of the Tribe of Judah.
(Hebrews 7:14)

I believe that to turn your gaze away from God's chosen people, and to not grant them the same rights as those of the Catholic faith surely would see God turn his gaze from us.

Yours,
Cardinal Lysander of Tyrn
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Crusader on Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:57 am

Nay Cardinal Lysander,

The holy book does say "from Judah" not from the "Tribe of Judah". Our Lord was not Jewish but was from the province of Judea.

Do you forget that the Pharisees, who are the kin of this ben Yosef, was Our Lord's greatest opponent?

You must read His Holy Words with care fellow Cardinal, the Devil makes you read what is not there.

Bishop-Knight, Laurence.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:45 pm

Bishop Laurence, I am shocked that a man of God who would bring the word of our Lord, Jesus Christ, to the heathen would be so ill read. Do you indeed not know that Yeshua ben Yosef is the Hebrew means of calling our Saviour's name, Yeshua being Jesus and ben Yosef being the Son of Joseph? Behold, for Yitzchak stands a pious man, for who but a pious man may better quote the scripture than even a cardinal and bishop of this church.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Crusader on Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:30 pm

House of Judah wrote:Bishop Laurence, I am shocked that a man of God who would bring the word of our Lord, Jesus Christ, to the heathen would be so ill read. Do you indeed not know that Yeshua ben Yosef is the Hebrew means of calling our Saviour's name, Yeshua being Jesus and ben Yosef being the Son of Joseph? Behold, for Yitzchak stands a pious man, for who but a pious man may better quote the scripture than even a cardinal and bishop of this church.

I was trying to find the name of whatever person you were talking as, I don't speak Hebrew.

I had no idea where the characters surname or christian name even began and where the speaker was. So it was not intended.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:15 pm

In CoC threads, it is always Cardinal Bishop Daniel, though he may quote others. That was him quoting Yitzchak ben Benyamin ben Yehuda quoting Yeshua been Yosef, aka Jesus.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Cybelos on Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:09 pm

OOC: Jesus was of the tribe of judah, as that verse says rather plainly enough, I thought. I could gather other resources if you'd like?

"For it is clear that our Lord has sprung out of Judah, a tribe as to which Moses spoke nothing of concerning priests."
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Crusader on Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:43 pm

OOC

"For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood."

King James Version.

I don't know how many of you have English as your primary language, but the semi-colon ";" is used to indicate a major division in a sentence, a change of topic or etc.

When it is written that Jesus was from Juda, it is then remarked that Moses did not speak about any specific ethnicity nor lineage. But a reference to the Kingdom of Juda, which was land (taken after killing the Caanites) was given to the Tribe of Juda.

Basically Moses mentioned that Jesus comes from the tribe/kingdom/region called Juda, and then adds he makes no mention of the priests from there.


In short, the line you referenced does not actually say anything about Jesus' ethnicity nor religion, just where he comes from.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Cybelos on Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:16 pm

Crusader wrote:*snip
ooc
Very interesting. I  had always thought Jesus was a jew, but maybe this means ethnically Jewish?

Just curious, have you studied the Bible? (Also, the King James Bible  is one of the few versions to use a semicolon, it seems the majority use a comma.)

Edit: also, is it not written that his mother and earthy father are both jews and that he worshipped at Jewish temples? (I am not a biblical scholar and the true meanings could be lost in the translation of the Bible.) I'm interested to hear what you think.

Also, I can delete the posts later if they're too spammy.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by House of Judah on Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:38 pm

Cybelos wrote:
Crusader wrote:*snip
ooc
Very interesting. I thought Jesus was a jew, but maybe this means ethnically?

Just curious, have you studied the Bible? (Also, the King James is one of the few versions to use a semicolon it seems, the majority use a comma.)
OOC: And it is one of the worst translations as well. (Honestly, Moses's horns? Thanks a lot.) Further, the historical character of Jesus was most certainly a Jew, and possibly a Rabbi (which is where the major source of animosity between him and the Pharisees would come from).

Moses never said anything about Jesus because Moses would have been dead a few hundred years before Jesus's birth. Moses did not say that Priests came from the Tribe of Judah because the Priests came from the Tribe of Levi. And finally, even the version you quote, says "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood." The presence of semi-colon only denotes a shift of the subject from Jesus to the Tribe of Judah, but does still say that he was of the Tribe of Judah.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Varasd on Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:15 am

MODERATION

Please move this discussion to a separate thread in the Discussion subforums. I will not remove or delete any of these posts, but if you have anything you want to discuss in the future about the RP, you can do it in that thread.
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Re: The Judean Matters

Post by Varasd on Fri Jan 01, 2016 8:58 pm

His Holiness the Pope has tallied the final votes:

Pope Leo VIII. - In favour
Cardinal Laurence (of the Gepidae Order) - Against
Cardinal Luq Léxonnois (of Bezique) - Against
Cardinal Daniel (of Judah) - In favour
Cardinal Ulam-khala (of Babylon) - Abstain
Cardinal Lysander (of Cybelos) - In favour
Cardinal Johannes (of Ebsotz) - Abstain

Overall, there are 4 votes in favour, 2 votes against, and 2 votes abstaining.

The Church hereby declares that Judea is a kingdom, and Yitzchak is King. He may decide the inheritance of his crown as he sees fit, as long as the King of Judea keeps the Judean Concordat.

Judean Concordat:

- The King of Judea shall cede his right of investiture to the Pope.

- The King of Judea shall allow the monasteries to be built in his realms, and allow them to be function as their counterparts in Christian lands.

- A male child from the ruling dynasty shall be sent to a Christian court, until he reaches adulthood. The child shall then return to Judea.

- In the Kingdom of Judea, no Christian shall be harmed or hindered in their beliefs; Christians can celebrate their holidays, as they wish; the safety of Christians shall be ensured by the King of Judea; Christian priests and converters can freely access and preach in the Kingdom of Judea. Every future King of Judea shall uphold these laws.

- As long as the King of Judea holds himselfs to these terms, no ruler shall deny his right to rule, and no one shall unlawfully punish his people.

- It is forbidden for any man to attempt to forcefully convert the people of Judea to the True Faith, only with true words of our Lord Jesus Christ shall they be converted.


The other proposal, the creating of the Nazorean Guard is approved aswell. The Nazorean Guard shall have Saint James, patron saint of pilgrims as their patron, and use this crest:

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